Ben Smith moderated a discussion between Howard Kosky and Lynsey Barry about the effectiveness of virtual versus in-office PR teams, with an emphasis on how both agency culture and leadership styles are impacted by physical location.

Howard founded and ran Markettiers for 30 years and built the group to a £38m + turnover. Like most businesses it was office based until Covid and then developed a hybrid in office, virtual set up.

Lynsey Barry is CEO and founder at Five not 10, a B2B PR firm with 9 employees founded in 2021.

Barry, a proponent of remote-first, asserted that culture is behavior-driven and requires deliberate virtual leadership, while Kosky emphasized the value of an office as a central base for culture development, in-person talent coaching, and cultivating young talent's social skills, though both agreed that leadership is crucial irrespective of the physical setting.

The speakers also explored the challenges of scaling agencies, the complexity of hybrid models, the importance of employee well-being, and how the office should be viewed as an investment rather than merely a cost.

Here’s a link to a previous podcast where we discussed the secrets of virtual PR agency leadership.

• Introduction Ben Smith introduced the podcast discussion with Howard Kosky, founder and ex-CEO of Markettiers, and Lynsey Barry, CEO and founder at Five not 10, to discuss whether virtual or in-office PR teams are more effective. Smith noted the conversation's genesis was a PRmments PR masterclass in November concerning company culture, scaling, and employing young people in a virtual agency.

• Smith plugged the next PRmoment PR Masterclass event: "The intersection of PR and GEO" on February 25th.

• Agency Culture: Virtual vs. In-Office Lynsey Barry contended that culture is driven by behavior, not a building, and that Five Not 10 was founded as remote-first, builds its culture remotely while still valuing and meeting face-to-face regularly.

• Howard Kosky agreed that culture is leadership-driven and not defined by "bricks and mortar," but believed that an office environment, as a central base where people congregate, is integral for articulating and developing culture through regular get-togethers. Barry acknowledged having worked in both good and bad cultures, stressing that leadership is key regardless of the physical setting.

• Leadership Style and Intentionality Barry suggested that virtual leadership must be "a lot more deliberate" than in-office environments, where learning can happen accidentally "by osmosis". Barry also questioned the value of commuting to an office only to sit on Teams calls, which clients often require. Kosky emphasized that coaching talent is a crucial part of leadership, and they viewed in-person coaching as "a lot more effective" than remote coaching, as the ability to observe and respond to a moment in time cannot be replaced remotely.

• Scaling Agencies and Talent Pool Regarding scaling, Kosky noted that COVID-19 taught businesses that the recruitment talent pool is global, which presents challenges related to salary expectations and achieving parity for talent in different geographical areas due to varied living costs.

• Barry asserted that a company leader does not need to know what their team is doing every second, provided they are delivering their work. However, Kosky maintained that visibility in an office allows for quicker responses and accelerates growth for the individual, particularly in developing "human skills" and "social skills," beyond functional efficiency.

• Hybrid Model Challenges The speakers touched upon the current reality that most PR firms operate in a hybrid model, typically requiring three to four days in the office. Barry viewed the hybrid model as having a "whole other set of challenges" because it requires adapting between office and home environments with some people being remote and others present.

• Kosky reiterated that their focus is on the "soft skills" and the development of the individual, arguing that while they trust people to do their jobs remotely, the in-office setting is better for this development than working virtually.

• Developing Young Talent and Social Skills Kosky argued that businesses have a societal role in helping nurture and mentor young people, particularly concerning social skills that are now often digitally driven. Kosky viewed the office environment as beneficial because it "forces people to come out of their comfort zone" and provides exposure to people from different walks of life, akin to school. Barry acknowledged this responsibility but stressed that the younger generation are adults with the right to decide how they want to work, noting that a firm that requires office work would be a better fit for those who find remote work challenging.

• Employee Well-being and Mental Health The speakers discussed employee mental well-being, agreeing that it is a priority for employers. Barry suggested that some people thrive in the office and some thrive at home, and that being remote offers soft benefits like no commute and more control over one's day, leading to better balance. Barry detailed well-being initiatives at 5 Not Ten, including a bi-weekly two-hour mental health break, regular face-to-face meetings, and a daily, non-work-related team call.

• Kosky believed that in-person observation of subtle signs of distress is easier in an office environment, facilitating a quicker ability to support and react to mental well-being concerns.

• Collaboration and Creativity Regarding work nature, Kosky suggested that remote work is suitable for "output-based" or technical work requiring focus, like writing a white paper. Barry agreed that some collaborative and creative work is better done face-to-face, which is why 5 Not Ten is intentional about building in such time, but does not believe it requires a "rigid office all the time".

• Kosky asserted that collaboration for "speed" and "agility" is done better in an office, especially when needing quick responses and multiple amends.

• Office as Investment versus Cost Ben Smith suggested that the money not spent on an office could be invested in technology or talent. Lynsey Barry confirmed that 5 Not Ten views the decision to be remote as multi-faceted, encompassing talent, client, and practical considerations, but that they cannot justify the cost of a physical office when they achieve the same results through deliberate face-to-face collaboration. Howard Kosky agreed that the office should be viewed as an investment with expected returns, such as enhanced culture or attracting specific talent, rather than merely an expense or cost. Barry concluded that 5 Not Ten is able to offer salary parity to their dispersed team because of their investment decisions, which prioritize talent over office space.