What does great agency leadership look like?

Host: Will Hart, dean of school, PRmoment Leaders

Featuring:

• Victoria Usher, CEO and founder, GingerMay
• David Phillips, co-founder and CEO, Pangolin

This is a special one-off edition of the podcast, hosted by Will Hart who heads up the PRmoment Leaders programme. Joining Will are Victoria Usher and David Phillips, both founders of successful independent agencies operating for over 10 years and specialising in separate sectors (respectively, GingerMay in b2b and Pangolin in consumer). Both are also on PRmoment Leaders as it approaches the second anniversary in May.

The discussion began with Victoria and David reflecting on what they know about leadership today that they did not know when starting their agencies. They also explored their key relationships within their businesses, David’s with his co-founder Will Cookson and Victoria with her team lead now by Amy Lawrence. They discussed the key attributes required of agency leaders, including decisiveness especially when pivots are required of the business.

They also explored how their time is most effectively used, including the split between current operations, client revenue and future-focused business strategy. Other key topics covered included how to properly delegate and empower your agency teams and the critical importance of getting hiring right.

The podcast concluded with Victoria and David sharing their thoughts on what they’re enjoying most and taking away from their participation in the PRmoment Leaders programme.

Details

• Welcome and Context: The discussion was framed as a special one-off edition of the PR Moment podcast, with Will Hart hosting because May marks two years of the PR Moment Leaders program, providing a timely opportunity to reflect on leadership. Victoria Usher is the founder and CEO of Ginger May, a B2B specialist agency started in 2010 with 35 employees, and David Phillips is the co-founder of Pangolin PR, established around 12 to 13 years ago, with approximately 25 employees.
• Reflecting on Early Leadership Knowledge: When asked about what they know about leadership today that they did not know when starting their agencies, Victoria stated she initially knew nothing about leadership and that the reality differs vastly from the initial fantasy. She likened running an agency to having children, emphasizing that it is a constant, difficult job with a multitude of decisions. David concurred, describing his journey as a steep learning curve since leaving his roles at Freud's as junior account directors.
• The Co-Founder Relationship: David detailed the evolution of his working relationship with co-founder Will Cookson, noting that while they are close friends outside of work, they maintain a necessary professional distance during the intense work week. They find that their personalities complement each other, enabling them to quickly reach decisions without major disagreements, attributing this success to mutual respect. Will observed that many successful independent PR agencies are co-founded, acknowledging Victoria's "extreme bravery" in founding Ginger May alone.
• Challenges of Being a Solo Founder: Victoria admitted that the benefit of a partner is discussing nuanced business issues, as she previously had to manage problems alone, which was a "visceral" experience when your livelihood is on the line. She confirmed the difficulty of solo-founding and advised others to adopt David’s' co-founder model. Having a trusted managing director, Amy Lawrence, has since provided a partner in crime, marking a significant turning point for the business.
• Leadership Decisiveness: Will suggested that decisiveness is often sought and respected in leadership roles because agency professionals are commonly criticized for being poor at making quick decisions. David confirmed that quick decision-making is a strength of Pangolin PR, enabling them to pivot quickly and be agile, which they view as a key selling point compared to larger creative shops.
• Relevance of Non-Core Business Skills: Will questioned the claim that 80% of the skills required for business leadership are unrelated to the core business. Victoria strongly agreed, recounting an experience from a Goldman Sachs course where founders from diverse sectors, including a sandwich shop owner, shared that their biggest problem was people. The course taught that fundamentally, the structure and model of all companies and their issues are largely the same.
• Role of the Founder in the Business: David noted that as his agency grew, the time dedicated to PR work decreased, with 70% to 80% of his time now spent on non-PR-related activities, though he still strives to engage in client relations. Victoria organizes her time around "fame and innovation," focusing on promoting the business and monitoring industry trends, while delegating client delivery and people management to her MD and other team members.
• Future Focus of Leadership Time: Victoria currently spends 0% of her time on revenue generation from existing clients but is highly involved in new business and strategy, which takes up a significant portion of her time. Will Hart concluded that Victoria’s time is essentially split between being involved in internal meetings for key decisions and focusing on the future of the business.. David’s time is similarly split, with a focus on "today" (operations, people, finance) while co-founder Will focuses on "tomorrow" (creative, marketing, new business).
• Managing Control and Delegation: Victoria uses technology, such as AI transcripts of meetings, to maintain awareness and control without having to attend every meeting. She stressed that delegation is crucial to avoid strangling the company or losing personal liberty. Victoria cautioned that a leader's involvement must be managed carefully, as the team may naturally defer decisions, highlighting the importance of empowering staff.
• Impact of Leadership Presence: Victoria acknowledged that they are perceived as "the boss" by the team, which can cause staff to be hesitant or feel the need for permission, even if they view themself as "one of the team". She also admitted to having a direct communication style which requires her to brief others or exercise caution to avoid causing confusion or disempowering staff.
• The Balance of Culture and Performance: The group discussed the challenging balance between fostering a brilliant culture with genuine friendships and maintaining a high-performance business. David emphasized that a good team culture breeds great campaigns, though maintaining this balance requires effort, such as hiring freelancers to manage workloads and ensuring new hires align with the agency culture.
• The Importance of Strategic Hiring: David highlighted that hiring is one of the most crucial lessons learned, stressing the need to hire people better than oneself and ensuring they fit the culture, as even a few wrong decisions can negatively impact the agency's environment. Victoria strongly agreed that hiring is fundamentally the business itself and relies on disc profiling to match skill sets to roles and personally conducts first interviews for every critical role.
• Discussion on PRmoment Leaders: Will initiated a request for feedback on the standout Masterclasses from the programme, noting that they had featured senior in-house and agency-side individuals. David highlighted a few that resonated with him, including James Herring's session on the modern approach to PR and earned media, which reinforced the agency's work with clients and their "four PS system" for modern communications. He also appreciated Graeme Goodkind's lesson from Frank about the importance of enjoying the work, creativity, and the subsequent positive outcomes for the business.
• David also noted that the weeks without a formal speaker, where the group could discuss issues and challenges such as resourcing or legal matters, were valuable due to the open and honest nature of the conversations in the PRmoment Leaders community.
• Value of Mentorship and External Expertise: Victoria praised the initiative, confirming she had enjoyed the Masterclasses and felt they were helpful in offering different perspectives. She gave a shout-out to Johnny Bentwood for his compelling discussion on GEO during the November agency day, which was valued for the honesty and expertise shared by key industry figures. She also specifically praised Adrian Torbert, an accountancy-side expert and former CFO at big agencies, for providing a comprehensive structure and set of metrics that align with industry averages for turnover and staffing.